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	<title>Comments on: Ken&#8217;s Cardiac Catheterization Procedure &#8211; Insurance, Fear, Pain, Going Home</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/heart-surgery-blog/2008/08/18/cardiac-catheterization-procedure-insurance-fear-pain-going-home/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/heart-surgery-blog/2008/08/18/cardiac-catheterization-procedure-insurance-fear-pain-going-home/</link>
	<description>Former Patient And Author, Adam Pick, Blogs About Heart Valve Replacement And Heart Valve Repair</description>
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		<title>By: Sandra Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/heart-surgery-blog/2008/08/18/cardiac-catheterization-procedure-insurance-fear-pain-going-home/comment-page-1/#comment-94268</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandra Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Dec 2011 01:02:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/heart-surgery-blog/2008/08/18/cardiac-catheterization-procedure-insurance-fear-pain-going-home/#comment-94268</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m 65 yrs old and had an angiogram 3 days ago. I am in Australia so my experience may be a little different to in the U.S.  I wasn&#039;t worried about having the angiogram because I heard it was painless (and it was), but I had a small complication, which I don&#039;t think has been mentioned in the other comments here. When a nurse attempted to get me up in the standard time after the procedure - 3 1/2 hrs, blood poured from the incision in my groin and there was general mayhem on the ward in an effort to stem the flow. It was all over the bed, the floor, my hands, etc. As you realise, the femoral artery is a major one and the cardiologist and 3 nurses all worked to get it under control. It scared me no end and I was so afraid to move a muscle for the rest of the day in case it happened again. I was kept in hospital for a further 24 hrs to monitor this. I am fine now, but the bruising across my groin is huge and black (probably from the pressure that had to be applied during the bleed). It&#039;s just something to watch out for and keeping extremely still after the procedure is very important.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m 65 yrs old and had an angiogram 3 days ago. I am in Australia so my experience may be a little different to in the U.S.  I wasn&#8217;t worried about having the angiogram because I heard it was painless (and it was), but I had a small complication, which I don&#8217;t think has been mentioned in the other comments here. When a nurse attempted to get me up in the standard time after the procedure &#8211; 3 1/2 hrs, blood poured from the incision in my groin and there was general mayhem on the ward in an effort to stem the flow. It was all over the bed, the floor, my hands, etc. As you realise, the femoral artery is a major one and the cardiologist and 3 nurses all worked to get it under control. It scared me no end and I was so afraid to move a muscle for the rest of the day in case it happened again. I was kept in hospital for a further 24 hrs to monitor this. I am fine now, but the bruising across my groin is huge and black (probably from the pressure that had to be applied during the bleed). It&#8217;s just something to watch out for and keeping extremely still after the procedure is very important.</p>
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		<title>By: Jen LaMotte</title>
		<link>http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/heart-surgery-blog/2008/08/18/cardiac-catheterization-procedure-insurance-fear-pain-going-home/comment-page-1/#comment-44614</link>
		<dc:creator>Jen LaMotte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 01:55:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/heart-surgery-blog/2008/08/18/cardiac-catheterization-procedure-insurance-fear-pain-going-home/#comment-44614</guid>
		<description>I just want to say Thank you so much for your story on your catherization. I go for mine in 2 days and I was scared to death. You have helped me with my fears. Hope mine goes as well as yours did. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just want to say Thank you so much for your story on your catherization. I go for mine in 2 days and I was scared to death. You have helped me with my fears. Hope mine goes as well as yours did. <img src='http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/heart-surgery-blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: roberta enyart</title>
		<link>http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/heart-surgery-blog/2008/08/18/cardiac-catheterization-procedure-insurance-fear-pain-going-home/comment-page-1/#comment-41399</link>
		<dc:creator>roberta enyart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Aug 2011 07:24:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/heart-surgery-blog/2008/08/18/cardiac-catheterization-procedure-insurance-fear-pain-going-home/#comment-41399</guid>
		<description>i had a angiogram on dec. 1,1908,  i went into the emergency room and they decided to keep me.  i had shortness of breath, bp was 160 and swollen ankles.  they decided to do an angiogram. while i was in the lab it caused a cariac arrest.  code blue.  10 minutes before the doctor came out and told my family that i had 40% blockage.  then they were told that i was in serios condition and they weren&#039;t sure i would make it.  i have a stent in the major value in my heart, i have conjective heart failure and a damaged heart muscle. i did not have any heart problems prior to this.  i was told that they went through both groins to both sides on my heart,  i don&#039;t know if this is normal procedure. when the doctor went in to put th stent in i was cut and had to have 22 stitches. i&#039;m also a diabetic.  i wish i had asked more questions.  i wish i had checked on other procedures before i had the angiogram.  beware, asked lots of questions.  and don&#039;t let anyone tell you theirs little risk. i had been to my internist 2 days before and was never told that i had conjestive heart failure.  yet this what i was told.   i wonder if conjestive heart failure can come on that fast.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i had a angiogram on dec. 1,1908,  i went into the emergency room and they decided to keep me.  i had shortness of breath, bp was 160 and swollen ankles.  they decided to do an angiogram. while i was in the lab it caused a cariac arrest.  code blue.  10 minutes before the doctor came out and told my family that i had 40% blockage.  then they were told that i was in serios condition and they weren&#8217;t sure i would make it.  i have a stent in the major value in my heart, i have conjective heart failure and a damaged heart muscle. i did not have any heart problems prior to this.  i was told that they went through both groins to both sides on my heart,  i don&#8217;t know if this is normal procedure. when the doctor went in to put th stent in i was cut and had to have 22 stitches. i&#8217;m also a diabetic.  i wish i had asked more questions.  i wish i had checked on other procedures before i had the angiogram.  beware, asked lots of questions.  and don&#8217;t let anyone tell you theirs little risk. i had been to my internist 2 days before and was never told that i had conjestive heart failure.  yet this what i was told.   i wonder if conjestive heart failure can come on that fast.</p>
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		<title>By: AT</title>
		<link>http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/heart-surgery-blog/2008/08/18/cardiac-catheterization-procedure-insurance-fear-pain-going-home/comment-page-1/#comment-37559</link>
		<dc:creator>AT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Apr 2011 07:34:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/heart-surgery-blog/2008/08/18/cardiac-catheterization-procedure-insurance-fear-pain-going-home/#comment-37559</guid>
		<description>People who are deathly scared of the procedure go to small town podunk hospitals to have this done...I would be scared too if I got it done at Barney Fife Memorial Hospital.  Large teaching facilities are the way to go if you don&#039;t want to be scared out of your mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People who are deathly scared of the procedure go to small town podunk hospitals to have this done&#8230;I would be scared too if I got it done at Barney Fife Memorial Hospital.  Large teaching facilities are the way to go if you don&#8217;t want to be scared out of your mind.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/heart-surgery-blog/2008/08/18/cardiac-catheterization-procedure-insurance-fear-pain-going-home/comment-page-1/#comment-37230</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Apr 2011 02:02:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/heart-surgery-blog/2008/08/18/cardiac-catheterization-procedure-insurance-fear-pain-going-home/#comment-37230</guid>
		<description>I have tow caths within the last 60 days.  The first cath was in the groin which was just a bit more uncomfortable than the second which was through the wrist.  I was given a mild seditaive on both occasions which was fine for me. It was not bad at all.  Trust me when I say that because I am a BIG BABY and it really was ok.  Thankfully, I have no significant blockage in my arterys (first cath done at Northside Hospital in Canton Georgia revealed 70% blockage in one artery, second cath done at St. Joseph Hospital in Atlanta, GA revealed slight blockage of 30% which is not enough to even address),however I do have to have my aortic valve replaced due to stenosis and mitral valve repair due to severe regurgitation.  My advice to you all?  Don&#039;t sweat the cath, It was easy compared to what lies ahead for me!  ;-)   Doug</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have tow caths within the last 60 days.  The first cath was in the groin which was just a bit more uncomfortable than the second which was through the wrist.  I was given a mild seditaive on both occasions which was fine for me. It was not bad at all.  Trust me when I say that because I am a BIG BABY and it really was ok.  Thankfully, I have no significant blockage in my arterys (first cath done at Northside Hospital in Canton Georgia revealed 70% blockage in one artery, second cath done at St. Joseph Hospital in Atlanta, GA revealed slight blockage of 30% which is not enough to even address),however I do have to have my aortic valve replaced due to stenosis and mitral valve repair due to severe regurgitation.  My advice to you all?  Don&#8217;t sweat the cath, It was easy compared to what lies ahead for me!  <img src='http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/heart-surgery-blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />    Doug</p>
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		<title>By: Sherry</title>
		<link>http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/heart-surgery-blog/2008/08/18/cardiac-catheterization-procedure-insurance-fear-pain-going-home/comment-page-1/#comment-37102</link>
		<dc:creator>Sherry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Mar 2011 18:15:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/heart-surgery-blog/2008/08/18/cardiac-catheterization-procedure-insurance-fear-pain-going-home/#comment-37102</guid>
		<description>I have aortic stenosis due to a bicuspid valve that was not discovered until I was 55 years old.  I was followed by a cardiologist for several years with regular echocardiograms which always showed mild stenosis.  About three years into it, my cardiologist became very concerned about how my echo looked and we were planning a necessary trip of 2000 miles shortly.  He insisted it was time to do a cardiac cath to determine how progressed the stenosis was.  I worked in the medical field for 25 years, so little of it actually scares me, though it is certainly unnerving to know a wire is being threaded into your heart. The staff at the hospital explained everything to us so we knew what to expect.  As others have said, it was fascinating to watch the screen as the test was performed; almost an out of body experience you will. Indeed, the hardest part is the prolonged rest afterward, but my husband helped me pass the time and I would doze off now and again.  The after effects were minimal and I was given the clearance to leave on our extended trip four days later, with no problems.

Things I learned: The catheterization showed that there had not been significant change in the stenosis since my diagnosis three years prior, which was a Hallaluliah moment!  I had not been completely comfortable with my cardiologist for the years I had been seeing him, but since the answer at each visit was &quot;stable, no changes&quot; I stuck with him. He seemed unsure of things sometimes, and we had had a couple of times when the echo results didn&#039;t seem right!? I took this scare as my nudge from above to find a cardiologist in whom I found a good raport and trust. I am now 60 years old, seeing a cardiologist that I have trust in, and there is no surgery in sight at this time. Be sure you are working with a doctor that you are comfortable with; it makes all the difference in going through the process of a progressive issue. I learned this through a diagnosis of cancer coinciding with the stenosis issue.
May God Bless all of you facing heart issues.  We are fortunate that we live in a time with so much help.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have aortic stenosis due to a bicuspid valve that was not discovered until I was 55 years old.  I was followed by a cardiologist for several years with regular echocardiograms which always showed mild stenosis.  About three years into it, my cardiologist became very concerned about how my echo looked and we were planning a necessary trip of 2000 miles shortly.  He insisted it was time to do a cardiac cath to determine how progressed the stenosis was.  I worked in the medical field for 25 years, so little of it actually scares me, though it is certainly unnerving to know a wire is being threaded into your heart. The staff at the hospital explained everything to us so we knew what to expect.  As others have said, it was fascinating to watch the screen as the test was performed; almost an out of body experience you will. Indeed, the hardest part is the prolonged rest afterward, but my husband helped me pass the time and I would doze off now and again.  The after effects were minimal and I was given the clearance to leave on our extended trip four days later, with no problems.</p>
<p>Things I learned: The catheterization showed that there had not been significant change in the stenosis since my diagnosis three years prior, which was a Hallaluliah moment!  I had not been completely comfortable with my cardiologist for the years I had been seeing him, but since the answer at each visit was &#8220;stable, no changes&#8221; I stuck with him. He seemed unsure of things sometimes, and we had had a couple of times when the echo results didn&#8217;t seem right!? I took this scare as my nudge from above to find a cardiologist in whom I found a good raport and trust. I am now 60 years old, seeing a cardiologist that I have trust in, and there is no surgery in sight at this time. Be sure you are working with a doctor that you are comfortable with; it makes all the difference in going through the process of a progressive issue. I learned this through a diagnosis of cancer coinciding with the stenosis issue.<br />
May God Bless all of you facing heart issues.  We are fortunate that we live in a time with so much help.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Rogers</title>
		<link>http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/heart-surgery-blog/2008/08/18/cardiac-catheterization-procedure-insurance-fear-pain-going-home/comment-page-1/#comment-23806</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Rogers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Aug 2010 00:03:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/heart-surgery-blog/2008/08/18/cardiac-catheterization-procedure-insurance-fear-pain-going-home/#comment-23806</guid>
		<description>I just had an angiogram last Wed. the 11th of Aug. 2010.  I am 66 and pretty much knew what to expect from experiences of others but was still scared as hell.  I am a very modest person and didn&#039;t much like the idea of laying there as naked as a newborn. Anyway, long story short, the procedure was very easy and painless.  Dr. and nurses kept me covered whole time. I was wide awake the whole time.

The hardest part was having to lay still for 5 hours afterwards.  (Bad back). 

God Bless all of you.  Hope your procedure was as easy as mine.  Ron</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just had an angiogram last Wed. the 11th of Aug. 2010.  I am 66 and pretty much knew what to expect from experiences of others but was still scared as hell.  I am a very modest person and didn&#8217;t much like the idea of laying there as naked as a newborn. Anyway, long story short, the procedure was very easy and painless.  Dr. and nurses kept me covered whole time. I was wide awake the whole time.</p>
<p>The hardest part was having to lay still for 5 hours afterwards.  (Bad back). </p>
<p>God Bless all of you.  Hope your procedure was as easy as mine.  Ron</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/heart-surgery-blog/2008/08/18/cardiac-catheterization-procedure-insurance-fear-pain-going-home/comment-page-1/#comment-14122</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 15:32:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/heart-surgery-blog/2008/08/18/cardiac-catheterization-procedure-insurance-fear-pain-going-home/#comment-14122</guid>
		<description>Thank you for writing about your cath experience.  I&#039;ve had two, one in 86&#039;and 96&#039;.  I watched both on the screen in Surgery.  Was pretty cool to see what they did.  (Guess I&#039;m weird!, but wanted to see what was going on.)  Back then I had to lay still for 8-12 hours! I am now 72 years old and still going strong with no heart problems.  So those facing a cath, have no fear.  God is in control and all will be good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for writing about your cath experience.  I&#8217;ve had two, one in 86&#8242;and 96&#8242;.  I watched both on the screen in Surgery.  Was pretty cool to see what they did.  (Guess I&#8217;m weird!, but wanted to see what was going on.)  Back then I had to lay still for 8-12 hours! I am now 72 years old and still going strong with no heart problems.  So those facing a cath, have no fear.  God is in control and all will be good.</p>
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		<title>By: LAurie Collins</title>
		<link>http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/heart-surgery-blog/2008/08/18/cardiac-catheterization-procedure-insurance-fear-pain-going-home/comment-page-1/#comment-9792</link>
		<dc:creator>LAurie Collins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 19:42:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/heart-surgery-blog/2008/08/18/cardiac-catheterization-procedure-insurance-fear-pain-going-home/#comment-9792</guid>
		<description>Ken,
  while you are in ICU they will have a line in you so it wont be an issue
            3 weeks ago,I had my second cardiac surgery in 3 years.The last time  was a nightmare because I am a &quot;hard stick&quot;. It took 4 people over 2 hours to find a vein to give me a blood transfusion. They finally got one in the side of my neck but it ran very slowly so I had to sit lie in an awkward position for 2 days. Then the IVs  kept infiltrating so  it became a never ending battle.
       Since then, I have learned some tricks. (Always warm up your arms in advance.Tell them that they need to put in a new IV BEFORE they take out the old one and work with them as much as possible.)
           This time around,I told my surgeon in advance. The nurses were quite nice and I now feel sorrier for them that I do myself. (Nurses that work with premies and with cancer patients are the best at  putting in IVs.    Their egos are bruised when they cant get in an IV.)
       The doctor can order a pick line to be put in. A pick nurse will use a sonogram machine to find the vein. They are professionals that deal with this all the time.   My pick nurse was an angel.It took 3 tries to get it in and she told me that I had deep and rebellious veins which would not let the iv advance. The pick line can remain in place  for the entire stay at the hospital.
          It is a pain but their kindness and understanding helps.
I learned 2 other tricks from a wonderful lady that drew my blood every morning.
1: Ask them to use a blue butterfly needle. It is what they use on infants.
2. Heat up your hands before they come in!   I couldnt find anything to use on the floor of the cardiac ward so I slid them under my butt and covered myself with blankets about 30 min before they came in. They got me with the first try each morning!
        Communicating your fear and amprehension will help them know how to treat you.
(oh! The pick nurse uses  local injections to numb the site.      She will keep injecting them until you say  it is numb.I had her inject me one more time after the area was numb just to be sure!)
       Contact me if you need to. LOsterCollins@aol.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken,<br />
  while you are in ICU they will have a line in you so it wont be an issue<br />
            3 weeks ago,I had my second cardiac surgery in 3 years.The last time  was a nightmare because I am a &#8220;hard stick&#8221;. It took 4 people over 2 hours to find a vein to give me a blood transfusion. They finally got one in the side of my neck but it ran very slowly so I had to sit lie in an awkward position for 2 days. Then the IVs  kept infiltrating so  it became a never ending battle.<br />
       Since then, I have learned some tricks. (Always warm up your arms in advance.Tell them that they need to put in a new IV BEFORE they take out the old one and work with them as much as possible.)<br />
           This time around,I told my surgeon in advance. The nurses were quite nice and I now feel sorrier for them that I do myself. (Nurses that work with premies and with cancer patients are the best at  putting in IVs.    Their egos are bruised when they cant get in an IV.)<br />
       The doctor can order a pick line to be put in. A pick nurse will use a sonogram machine to find the vein. They are professionals that deal with this all the time.   My pick nurse was an angel.It took 3 tries to get it in and she told me that I had deep and rebellious veins which would not let the iv advance. The pick line can remain in place  for the entire stay at the hospital.<br />
          It is a pain but their kindness and understanding helps.<br />
I learned 2 other tricks from a wonderful lady that drew my blood every morning.<br />
1: Ask them to use a blue butterfly needle. It is what they use on infants.<br />
2. Heat up your hands before they come in!   I couldnt find anything to use on the floor of the cardiac ward so I slid them under my butt and covered myself with blankets about 30 min before they came in. They got me with the first try each morning!<br />
        Communicating your fear and amprehension will help them know how to treat you.<br />
(oh! The pick nurse uses  local injections to numb the site.      She will keep injecting them until you say  it is numb.I had her inject me one more time after the area was numb just to be sure!)<br />
       Contact me if you need to. <a href="mailto:LOsterCollins@aol.com">LOsterCollins@aol.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Midge</title>
		<link>http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/heart-surgery-blog/2008/08/18/cardiac-catheterization-procedure-insurance-fear-pain-going-home/comment-page-1/#comment-9777</link>
		<dc:creator>Midge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 02:52:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/heart-surgery-blog/2008/08/18/cardiac-catheterization-procedure-insurance-fear-pain-going-home/#comment-9777</guid>
		<description>Connie, I&#039;m 67 yr old female and had a cardiac cath in Jan. 09, followed by aortic valve replacement in February. I would guess the risk of problems with a cath are very minimal. Of course, I don&#039;t know but there is inherent risk in every minute of our lives and when there is this marvelous equipment that can tell doctors so much so that they can perform surgeries to save us, I went for it without a second thought.  My biggest fear of the cath is that I read the room is kept cold and I Hate Being Cold. When they got me in the procedure room, they brought these very toasty, fuzzy blankets and wrapped me up except for my head and the leg they were using.  Only thing I felt was a small prick where they deaden the area where they are going in. Otherwise I was awake for the whole thing, did not feel anything snaking around my artery into my heart but got to watch a great show on the monitor of the inside of my heart. WHAT A TRIP!

Spent a few hours in recovery with a clamp thingy on my leg which got changed to a &quot;sandbag&quot; toward the end.  The gurney wasn&#039;t super comfortable but it worked.  Then they sent me home with a list of instructions that gave me an excuse to lie in bed and read for a couple of days.  While I was still going thru the cath procedure, the doctor doing it was very up front with saying, &quot;Yep, it&#039;s time to change that valve.&quot;  

Anywhere along the line, things can go wrong.  But with the hundreds of thousands of these things done every year in the U.S. I bet percentages of problems are really small.  Maybe Adam has a better idea of numbers.

Good luck.  

Midge</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Connie, I&#8217;m 67 yr old female and had a cardiac cath in Jan. 09, followed by aortic valve replacement in February. I would guess the risk of problems with a cath are very minimal. Of course, I don&#8217;t know but there is inherent risk in every minute of our lives and when there is this marvelous equipment that can tell doctors so much so that they can perform surgeries to save us, I went for it without a second thought.  My biggest fear of the cath is that I read the room is kept cold and I Hate Being Cold. When they got me in the procedure room, they brought these very toasty, fuzzy blankets and wrapped me up except for my head and the leg they were using.  Only thing I felt was a small prick where they deaden the area where they are going in. Otherwise I was awake for the whole thing, did not feel anything snaking around my artery into my heart but got to watch a great show on the monitor of the inside of my heart. WHAT A TRIP!</p>
<p>Spent a few hours in recovery with a clamp thingy on my leg which got changed to a &#8220;sandbag&#8221; toward the end.  The gurney wasn&#8217;t super comfortable but it worked.  Then they sent me home with a list of instructions that gave me an excuse to lie in bed and read for a couple of days.  While I was still going thru the cath procedure, the doctor doing it was very up front with saying, &#8220;Yep, it&#8217;s time to change that valve.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Anywhere along the line, things can go wrong.  But with the hundreds of thousands of these things done every year in the U.S. I bet percentages of problems are really small.  Maybe Adam has a better idea of numbers.</p>
<p>Good luck.  </p>
<p>Midge</p>
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